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Off the menu requests and a bit too much attitude...

Off the menu requests and a bit too much attitude...
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  • Post #31 - September 13th, 2004, 5:01 pm
    Post #31 - September 13th, 2004, 5:01 pm Post #31 - September 13th, 2004, 5:01 pm
    mrbarolo wrote:Antonius: So, when you use the pasta water - do you beat some water into the raw egg, and add that mixture to the noodles in the pan, or do you put raw egg and noodles in the pan, and add a bit of water to them then?


    I have to confess that when I've tried it just mixing the eggs into the pasta off the heat, they don't cook enough for my taste. Perhaps one can use a very hot pre-heated bowl in which to do the mixing but the heat of the pasta alone isn't sufficient for me.

    Tempering the beaten eggs with the hot cooking water (add a little hot water, beat vigorously, add a little more, beat vigorously, etc.) raises the temperature of the eggs and, as long as you keep stirring everything and don't use too high a heat and too hot a hot pan, you can bring the eggs and pasta together and get the eggs cooked enough to be creamy (not raw and slimy) but not curdled into clumps of scrambled eggs. I think mixing a good measure of pecorino (for me, not parmigiano in this dish but parmigiano would taste pretty good too) into the eggs is important for getting the texture right.

    Again, it seems to me that the use of cream in the dish, insofar as it's not just a question of liking the flavour of cream, is a way to get the creamy texture of the sauce with less risk of clumping. But all in all, I'd rather have creamy sauce with a few clumps of scrambled egg than no clumps but uncooked or undercooked egg.

    Greek avgolemono sauces (the same thing is also done in central Italy, especially Lazio and the Abruzzi, and so roughtly the same neck of the woods that likes carbonara) are cooked and kept from getting lumpy through tempering. In Italy, as in Greece, egg sauces are made with lamb.

    My old Roman cookbook says (my paraphrase): throw the cooked spaghetti into the pan with the egg mixture and mix them around for a couple of minutes, and turn them over with a wooden spoon until the egg is cooked and has tightened; this last word is my rendering of rapprese, from rapprendere, literally 'to coagulate', but note that they go on to say ar punto giusto, "to the right point"... Unambiguously 'cooked' but just what the right texture is, well, that's harder to describe. Of course, that pan should not be on high heat.

    Cooked, as creamy as possible, certainly not lumpy, but certainly not raw. At least that's how I see it.

    I hope that helps.

    Antonius
    Alle Nerven exzitiert von dem gewürzten Wein -- Anwandlung von Todesahndungen -- Doppeltgänger --
    - aus dem Tagebuch E.T.A. Hoffmanns, 6. Januar 1804.
    ________
    Na sir is na seachain an cath.
  • Post #32 - September 14th, 2004, 7:14 am
    Post #32 - September 14th, 2004, 7:14 am Post #32 - September 14th, 2004, 7:14 am
    Is Stefani's still open? I know the building was sold and the restaurant slated to close.


    Al Ehrhardt wrote:Gary,

    I also use Marcella's recipe, no cream.



    Ronnie,

    I forgot to mention, while it is not a textbook recipe since it uses bacon (instead of pancetta) and includes peas, Stefani's on Fullerton sure does take care of a carbonara craving. While at a previous job, a sales rep used to take us there regularly for lunch. After the ordering it there for the first time, I made it my usual order.

    Cheers,
    Al
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #33 - September 14th, 2004, 7:52 am
    Post #33 - September 14th, 2004, 7:52 am Post #33 - September 14th, 2004, 7:52 am
    As you and others are aware I used to be part of the management team at a well bashed chain seafood place. There, we made our own mayo for use on sandwiches, tartar and most of the dressings. This mayo was made with raw, unpastuerized eggs, and we made no comment of this on the menu. We did comment on the menu about the dangers of eating raw oysters though. Thus, I don't think that the raw eggs really would be an issue because the lawers for the above mentioned restaurant were a pain in the ass


    Wow, that's really disturbing given that raw eggs do present a significant risk to certain groups of people (i.e. pregnant women and children). Useful lesson, however, to remember to ask about the content of sauces and salad dressings.
    MAG
    www.monogrammeevents.com

    "I've never met a pork product I didn't like."
  • Post #34 - September 14th, 2004, 11:07 am
    Post #34 - September 14th, 2004, 11:07 am Post #34 - September 14th, 2004, 11:07 am
    MAG wrote:
    As you and others are aware I used to be part of the management team at a well bashed chain seafood place. There, we made our own mayo for use on sandwiches, tartar and most of the dressings. This mayo was made with raw, unpastuerized eggs, and we made no comment of this on the menu. We did comment on the menu about the dangers of eating raw oysters though. Thus, I don't think that the raw eggs really would be an issue because the lawers for the above mentioned restaurant were a pain in the ass


    Wow, that's really disturbing given that raw eggs do present a significant risk to certain groups of people (i.e. pregnant women and children). Useful lesson, however, to remember to ask about the content of sauces and salad dressings.


    MAG,

    After rereading my post I should mention that the disclaimer read something like. Certain persons might have health problems from consuming raw animal protein such as oysters, eggs, etc.

    I meant to imply that they never stated that the mayo was made in house, and that it was found in the tartar, french, 1000 island, remoulade, blue cheese and ranch dressings. Ironically, the one dressing which did not contain mayo was the highest in fat at about 30 grams per serving for the Greek vinagrette.

    Flip
    "Beer is proof God loves us, and wants us to be Happy"
    -Ben Franklin-
  • Post #35 - August 15th, 2005, 8:11 pm
    Post #35 - August 15th, 2005, 8:11 pm Post #35 - August 15th, 2005, 8:11 pm
    Two final points, related but un-related to the theme of the post:

    1) Is Boca de la verita still there on the Lincoln Sq strip? I thought I heard it closed. Anyways, they had a good carbonara, at least they did years ago.

    Yep, La Bocca is still there, going strong, and making real Carbonara with guanciale. They've seen dozens of restaurants come and go on the strip but their consistancy has made for a loyal following.
    BTW, they don't use cream in their Carbonara.
  • Post #36 - August 15th, 2005, 9:03 pm
    Post #36 - August 15th, 2005, 9:03 pm Post #36 - August 15th, 2005, 9:03 pm
    Funny how threads float back to the top.

    I have used, when in places like Minnesota or Wisconsin, a good quality salt pork, blanched, as the basis for a nice carbonara.

    No cream, at least for me.

    A clue to the egg-tempering thing Antonius refers to is the call for a wooden spoon. I make certain sauces, like carbonara, in earthenware pots (casolles, cazuelas, etc.) I have one prized one from my mother that I use especially for this. You cannot use anything but a wooden spoon with these pots, and while you can make a stew in them, including browning meat, it is a much slower process, as an intense heat will wreck them. So you must bring them up to heat slowly, also you can't heat them empty, so the pork starts out cooking gently and then will begin to brown a bit (I don't like crispy bits of pork in my carbonara, but that's just me). When the pork is getting done the pasta has usually been dropped and t here's some good pasta water, and that's when I usually put in the pasta water, and then just timing it right (hopefully) adding the beaten eggs to the cazuela, and bringing it to a nice sauce consistency.

    I like to use M. Hazan's recommendation of 1/2 parmesan and 1/2 pecorino, but really not too much of either. Couple of tablespoons of each. And a good handful of freshly chopped parsley to set it off.

    I always use spaghetti for this, but am open to suggestion to those who know more about pasta/sauce pairings.

    Also, I have written on this board before about Canella's on Grand, which I think is a bit underappreciated. There are times when Himself and I are negotiating eating out, and he wants Italian (his alternate name is Spaghetti Eddie:-) which I usually prefer to cook at home. But in the pantheon of Italian restaurants all in the same price point in Chicago (about overpriced by aboutt 50% in my book, but again, that's just me) I will suggest Canellas over other places. You can find things on their menu, and I will mention again the very nice risotto with baby cuttlefish that I had as a special and beat anything else in the same price range/type of restaurant that I've ever had in Chicago.
  • Post #37 - August 15th, 2005, 10:19 pm
    Post #37 - August 15th, 2005, 10:19 pm Post #37 - August 15th, 2005, 10:19 pm
    Antonius wrote:Cooked, as creamy as possible, certainly not lumpy, but certainly not raw.


    One must take note that, even though the eggs are heated, they are not heated to a hot enough temperature for a long enough time to kill off Salmonella. Not that I care--I eat raw egg all the time. But for anyone that might have a compromised immune system, such foods as mayo, hollandaise, and spaghetti carbonara, do present a risk.
  • Post #38 - August 15th, 2005, 10:28 pm
    Post #38 - August 15th, 2005, 10:28 pm Post #38 - August 15th, 2005, 10:28 pm
    So the raw egg I like mixed into my steak tartar / hackepeter might be bad for me? :wink:
  • Post #39 - August 16th, 2005, 12:08 am
    Post #39 - August 16th, 2005, 12:08 am Post #39 - August 16th, 2005, 12:08 am
    Wow! Almost a year and nobody has made a Sue Ann Nivens joke about the Veal Orloff in the original post....

    Mary could never throw a decent party...
    Authorized time shifting let the genie out of the bottle....
  • Post #40 - August 16th, 2005, 7:44 am
    Post #40 - August 16th, 2005, 7:44 am Post #40 - August 16th, 2005, 7:44 am
    I saw once the actual figures on salmonella contamination for chicken and eggs. For chickens, it was something like 1 in 3. For eggs, it was something like 1 in 10,000. So I don't worry about my eggs over easy being runny...
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  • Post #41 - August 16th, 2005, 8:04 am
    Post #41 - August 16th, 2005, 8:04 am Post #41 - August 16th, 2005, 8:04 am
    Years ago, the reports I'd read on salmonella were that it was concentrated on the east coast, especially Jersey. The number of lawyers in that part of the world may have exacerbated the response. It may be urban legend, but I had heard it was illegal to serve eggs over easy in New Jersey
  • Post #42 - August 16th, 2005, 8:32 am
    Post #42 - August 16th, 2005, 8:32 am Post #42 - August 16th, 2005, 8:32 am
    annieb wrote: You can find things on their menu, and I will mention again the very nice risotto with baby cuttlefish that I had as a special and beat anything else in the same price range/type of restaurant that I've ever had in Chicago.


    I will add that I've been told more than once at Canella's (usually when the waiter perceived a lack of enthusiasm on hearing the specials), "What do you want? We'll make anything." Now, if Canella's would only get a better wine list...
  • Post #43 - August 16th, 2005, 9:02 am
    Post #43 - August 16th, 2005, 9:02 am Post #43 - August 16th, 2005, 9:02 am
    Mike G wrote:I saw once the actual figures on salmonella contamination for chicken and eggs. For chickens, it was something like 1 in 3. For eggs, it was something like 1 in 10,000. So I don't worry about my eggs over easy being runny...


    The eggs numbers are correct. I don't know about the chicken numbers, but I do know that there are restaurants that serve chicken sashimi in Japan, and apparently people don't seem to get sick.

    For anyone paranoid about egg-borne Salmonella, there are, of course, pasteurized eggs. Me? I don't worry about it.
  • Post #44 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:13 am
    Post #44 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:13 am Post #44 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:13 am
    JoelF wrote:Years ago, the reports I'd read on salmonella were that it was concentrated on the east coast, especially Jersey. The number of lawyers in that part of the world may have exacerbated the response. It may be urban legend, but I had heard it was illegal to serve eggs over easy in New Jersey

    No urban legend...it was law for about a week or so while I lived there. Camera crews from news stations from NY to Philly were dispatched to roadside diners throughout the Garden State trying to order their eggs soft-boiled or over-easy and being turned down. Poor NJ was ridiculed for over-regulating, and the State soon backed off. While I don't remember the particulars, I think it was blamed on over-zealous reactive politicians rather than linked to any legal liability.
    there's food, and then there's food
  • Post #45 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:22 am
    Post #45 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:22 am Post #45 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:22 am
    I do know that there are restaurants that serve chicken sashimi in Japan, and apparently people don't seem to get sick.


    Some of the countries in Europe have basically eliminated salmonella in chicken, but it's a big expense to get rid of it (I forget exactly how-- if they test chicken by chicken or what). So it hasn't happened here. That said, I don't think I could face raw chicken, I've been brainwashed by years of cooking chicken to 165, no matter how safe I might be told it was.
    Watch Sky Full of Bacon, the Chicago food HD podcast!
    New episode: Soil, Corn, Cows and Cheese
    Watch the Reader's James Beard Award-winning Key Ingredient here.
  • Post #46 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:41 am
    Post #46 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:41 am Post #46 - September 2nd, 2005, 9:41 am
    I do know that there are restaurants that serve chicken sashimi in Japan, and apparently people don't seem to get sick.


    Does not being able to keep it down qualify as sick? :x

    It's probably a cultural thing that I have no problems with raw fish, raw beef, but not poultry. Then again, many raw shellfish (oysters? :x :x :x ) give me the same rise in gorge, and I think I've had ostrich carpaccio without problems.
  • Post #47 - September 3rd, 2005, 5:57 am
    Post #47 - September 3rd, 2005, 5:57 am Post #47 - September 3rd, 2005, 5:57 am
    JoelF wrote:It may be urban legend, but I had heard it was illegal to serve eggs over easy in New Jersey

    Rich4 wrote:No urban legend...it was law for about a week or so while I lived there. Camera crews from news stations from NY to Philly were dispatched to roadside diners throughout the Garden State trying to order their eggs soft-boiled or over-easy and being turned down. Poor NJ was ridiculed for over-regulating

    Oh, yeah.... Eggs Like These.
  • Post #48 - September 8th, 2005, 11:57 pm
    Post #48 - September 8th, 2005, 11:57 pm Post #48 - September 8th, 2005, 11:57 pm
    Last night I made a sublime Carbonara at home for the wife and I. As I munched on the fluffy egg scramble, creamy reggiano parmesan, and crunchy bacon, I remembered this post fondly. Just wanted to let Evil know that in my kitchen, I'd hook you up with carbonara upon request anytime.
  • Post #49 - March 17th, 2010, 7:15 pm
    Post #49 - March 17th, 2010, 7:15 pm Post #49 - March 17th, 2010, 7:15 pm
    I knew that Plotnicki thread was giving me a sense of deja vu!

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