David, you will certainly get mineral deposits on the heating element if you use mineral water, but you also get greater extraction of oils from the coffee. (Tap water gives you the same bad mineral deposits, but not the right flavor extraction. I don't understand the chemistry of coffee, but the mineral composition of the water makes a difference for extraction of oil from coffee.) If you do a side by side coffee comparison using distilled water and several different mineral waters, you'll be surprised how much difference the water makes to a cup of coffee. Shortening the life of the machine vs. less flavorful coffee is a trade-off I'm willing to make. BTW, I don't have one of those Boeing 777 espresso machines that cost the same as an aircraft carrier, so I'm not exactly exposing myself to financial ruin here.

<<You know, you mention the "neutral" Lake Michigan water, and I think "neutral" is exactly what one wants for an everyday water. >>

I think the taste of whatever water you drink every day _becomes_ neutral to your taste. Because everyone had wells where I grew up -- and no such thing as reverse osmosis or filtration systems; we drank it straight from the ground -- everyone's water tasted different. Your own water tasted neutral. Every time I moved, I had to get used to the local water, which eventually became neutral-tasting.

Today, with filtration systems, et al, almost every town's water tastes the same to me.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned "VOLVIC" spring water, which I find the best tasting and smoothest going down. Problem with lake Michigan water is its a hard water which you can taste even if a charcoal filter is used.



I suggest you guys try VOLVIC spring water from France which is sold at Trader Joes and some other places. I can tell the difference between this spring water and virtually any other one sold in the store... it just goes down smoothly and has no bad taste!

here is marketing on it:

Volvic is bottled exclusively at its unique source and available in more than 60 countries worldwide. The basin supplying the Volvic spring source is located in the Regional Park of the Old Auvergne Volcanoes. This volcanic region has been dormant for 10,000 years. The name Volvic refers to the town as well as a type of gray volcanic rock.

polster wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned "VOLVIC" spring water, which I find the best tasting and smoothest going down. Problem with lake Michigan water is its a hard water which you can taste even if a charcoal filter is used.

Hey Polster,

Actually, choey mentioned it on page 1 (http://lthforum.com/bb/posting.php?mode=quote&p=23106), so with his recommendation and yours, it looks like I should check it out.

What I'm thinking I need to do is a side-by-side with Evian, Volvic, and C2's favorite: Lake Michigan.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:
Hey Polster,

Actually, choey mentioned it on page 1 (http://lthforum.com/bb/posting.php?mode=quote&p=23106), so with his recommendation and yours, it looks like I should check it out.

LOL... I didnt see someone else mention Volvic!... David, let us know your opinion on the different waters when you do your subjective taste test!

polster wrote:LOL... I didnt see someone else mention Volvic!... David, let us know your opinion on the different waters when you do your subjective taste test!

Will do, though the next major taste test in the works will a side-by-side catsup taste-off that I'm working on with ReneG. Stay tuned.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:

polster wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned "VOLVIC" spring water, which I find the best tasting and smoothest going down. Problem with lake Michigan water is its a hard water which you can taste even if a charcoal filter is used.

Hey Polster,

Actually, choey mentioned it on page 1 (http://lthforum.com/bb/posting.php?mode=quote&p=23106), so with his recommendation and yours, it looks like I should check it out.

What I'm thinking I need to do is a side-by-side with Evian, Volvic, and C2's favorite: Lake Michigan.

Hammond

Add to that list my current favorite still water, Ice Mountain, and throw in Mountain Valley Spring Water for good measure (Both owned by Nestle, BTW). I've always found Mountain Valley to have an especially clean taste.

stevez wrote:

David Hammond wrote:

polster wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned "VOLVIC" spring water, which I find the best tasting and smoothest going down. Problem with lake Michigan water is its a hard water which you can taste even if a charcoal filter is used.

Hey Polster,

Actually, choey mentioned it on page 1 (http://lthforum.com/bb/posting.php?mode=quote&p=23106), so with his recommendation and yours, it looks like I should check it out.

What I'm thinking I need to do is a side-by-side with Evian, Volvic, and C2's favorite: Lake Michigan.

Hammond

Add to that list my current favorite still water, Ice Mountain, and throw in Mountain Valley Spring Water for good measure (Both owned by Nestle, BTW). I've always found Mountain Valley to have an especially clean taste.

The small green bottles of Moutain Valley are what one is usually served at the gaming tables in Las Vegas, so I have a strong association with this water and all things Vegas. Which I suppose is the point with a lot of these things (waters) they are evoking something as much as they are trying to taste like something.

Rob

Regardless of the cheapo Vegas image. This water has a history.

A few months ago Cooks Illustrated tested a bunch waters and Volvic ended up being the highest rated. Interestingly, a close competitor was tap water from metropolitan LA.

Trader Joe's sells Volvic, when they have it in stock, for $1.19 a bottle. A pretty good deal.

Water judged in four categories at W.Va. contest

The 2005 gold medal winners are:

- Municipal water - Gibsons, British Columbia

- Noncarbonated bottled water - Le Sage Natural Wells, Lesage, W.Va.

- Purified drinking water - Imibe, Broadview, Saskatchewan

- Carbonated bottled (sparkling) water - Roua Muntilor, Covasna, Romania

- People's Choice packaging design - Juliana, Jesenice, Slovenia

stevez wrote:Add to that list my current favorite still water, Ice Mountain, and throw in Mountain Valley Spring Water for good measure (Both owned by Nestle, BTW). I've always found Mountain Valley to have an especially clean taste.

Are you certain that Nestle owns Mountain Valley? I know that Danone Suntory distributes them here (in addition to Nestle, perhaps?), and it'd seem odd for Nestle (one of their arch rivals) to hand distribution of one of their brands to someone else in a highly contested home/office distribution market. I was always under the impression that they were more or less independant and sold their water to anyone that wanted to buy it. (And the same goes for the Diamond brand that they own as well.)

On a somewhat related note, Volvic is another of DSW's many brands.

Food Nut wrote:This thread reminded me of a FRONTLINE episode concerning the privatization of water in third world countries and elsewhere.

The highlights:

"People with access to safe public drinking water-who are willing to spend up to 1000 times more for bottled water-represent the world's largest consumers of bottled water.

By 2005, bottled water is expected to surpass milk and coffee and become the No. 2 beverage behind soft drinks.

About one-third of the water bottles tested contained synthetic organic chemicals and bacteria, and one sample contained arsenic levels that exceeded state health limits.

About 25% of the bottled water sold in the United States comes from a municipal water source.

The Natural Resources Defense Council asserts that bottled water regulations are inadequate to assure consumers of purity or safety."

For more detailed information on the bottled water you are drinking, here's the Frontline link:

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stori ... ottle.html

As LTH's resident environmental attorney, I'll just put in the following thoughts (and wait for the firestorm):

Municipal drinking water in the State of Illinois (including everything from trailer parks with a well up to the City of Chicago) is regulated by the federal EPA and Illinois EPA pursuant to the Safe Drinking Water Act, which establishes Maximum Contaminant Levels ("MCLs") for all the nasties out there that might hurt you if you drank enough of them, including those that would survive bottling.

Chicago's tap water regularly meets or exceeds all the MCLs. In fact, I'd wager most Americans who buy city water are meeting or exceeding the MCLs on all constituents of concern.

Many bottled waters contain a certain mix of minerals that enhances the flavor and makes them unique. Apollinaris is a good example of this type of bottled water; I like it a lot. It also comes from Germany, meaning I have no idea whether it has been tested for actual health and safety concerns. But I don't drink it for my health.

Some of the truly SERIOUS mineral waters, like Pluto Water from French Lick, Indiana contain very high levels of minerals that cause a laxative effect. If that's what you want, then go for it. Keep in mind that laxative effect is pretty much the only verifiable health benefit of these exotic spring waters.

Don't get too concerned about the fact that some bottled waters are tap water from U.S. municipal water sources. In fact, you should be reassured that this water has been subject to the most stringent health, safety and quality control measures in the world. In other words, it is exactly like what you are getting from your tap in Chicago, for 1,000 times the price! You should feel better about that!

On a more serious note, realize that your plumbing probably contains enough lead (if not in the pipes then in the solder and/or incorporated into the brass of your faucet) that you should always run the tap at least 30 seconds, or until the water runs cold and stops getting colder, before filling your glass or cooking pot. Lead and other metals leach into the water while it sits in the pipes and faucet. This is particularly bad first thing in the morning and when you get home from work, when you haven't tapped water in 8 hours or more. But even a lag of 2 hours is enough to create some concern. One way to quickly flush out the pipes (or at least get things started in a big way) is to flush the toilet once or twice first thing in the morning, before you make your coffee or brush your teeth.

Executive Summary: Don't buy bottled water for any reason other than the flavor (or for bubbles, of course). Don't drink stale water that's been percolating in your pipes and faucets all night extracting lead and other harmful constituents of concern. That is all.

JiLS, Esq.

Well some would say like myself is that Lake Michigan Water is hard water and you can tell the difference between tap water and volic in how smooth in goes down.

Also A lot of people with skin problems complain about Chicago Lake michigan water being very bad for your skin when showering.

/polster

polster wrote:Well some would say like myself is that Lake Michigan Water is hard water and you can tell the difference between tap water and volic in how smooth in goes down.

Also A lot of people with skin problems complain about Chicago Lake michigan water being very bad for your skin when showering.

/polster

Well, if "volic" (Volvic?) is smooth in the going down AND you know that this water meets the health and safety standards that are so heavily and thoroughly enforced for drinking water sources in the U.S, by law, then that's a subjectivity that more or less meets up with the thesis I was trying to develop regarding taste versus cost. That is, taste in water will cost you 1,000 times as much as rational concern for your health would necessarily cost if that is your only concern. Aesthetics in water cost much more than safety in water.

As to the hard water from Lake Michigan being bad for your skin when showering, what alternative would you suggest while living in Chicaogo? Volvic? Seriously, water softeners relying on rock salt or other compressed salt tablets are an option, although they leave your water filled with saltiness. More important, you do realize that I was talking about the health and safety of drinking water for consumption (i.e., drinking or eating as a food ingredient) and not showering with it? That is another story altogether, and anyone from Southern California could probably give you an earful in that regard, in particular their love for the aerospace industry that has turned just about every shallow aquifer in S. Cal. into an undrinkable (if not expensively remediated) source of drinking water. Another victory of the Cold War ...

JimInLoganSquare wrote:Executive Summary: Don't buy bottled water for any reason other than the flavor (or for bubbles, of course). Don't drink stale water that's been percolating in your pipes and faucets all night extracting lead and other harmful constituents of concern. That is all.

JiLS, Esq.

JiLS, thanks for the informed perspective. Flavor and bubbles are important (especially when the water is consumed with dinner, as I think bubbly water cleanses the palate), but I also buy bottled water for convenience. For everyday consumption, The Wife procures cases of Kirkland at Costco, and I think it works out to about 12-15 cents a bottle. I grab a few before leaving the house, and for pennies can stay fully hydrated.

At home, to ensure that I drink unleaded, I let three women shower before I take a drink from the tap; my assumption is that many gallons passing through the pipes will cleanse most of the lead-percolated H20 and make it suitable for consumption.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:At home, to ensure that I drink unleaded, I let three women shower before I take a drink from the tap; my assumption is that many gallons passing through the pipes will cleanse most of the lead-percolated H20 and make it suitable for consumption.

Hammond

I'm hardly a plumbing expert, but how much does the water that runs to the shower run thru the same pipes as your kitchen tap?

We typically let the kitchen tap run a few minutes before filling up the brita machine to air out some of the chlorine. I should note, though, that I am (very) fine with Chicago tap, the brita (for me) is just for coffee.

rg

VI,

I'm sure there are some separate pipes for shower, toilet and tap; I'm thinking, though, that much of the lead is washed away with toilets flushing and showers showering.

Hammond

I suppose I avoid bottled water to cut down on the amount of garbage I produce. Since Chicago will only recycle, as far as I know, #1 and #2 coded plastics, I usually avoid any grocery products that do not recycle here. I use the Chicago "blue bags" to separate my recyclable plastics, glass and paper. At Dominicks lately, my groceries are packed in blue bags. Now, I don't even have to purchase the blue bags. Though, reports in the Trib lately report big problems with the effectiveness of the blue bag program here.

I'm pretty sure the air I breathe around 31st and Pulaski 8 hours a day is worse than any damage the water from the tap at my home in Chicago(some studies have shown that cancer is showing up at a high rate in this area, possibly, or most likely from, industrial waste). I do try to bring my own filtered water to the school I work in, since this building is close to one hundred years old. The sink in my classroom is constantly running(a good thing, I hope), because sometimes I do drink from it.

Why not refill those plastic water bottles with water you filter yourself? One case of those little water bottles makes a lot of garbage.

The recycling habits of cities/towns and it's citizens and businesses change from place to place. Find out what the "rules" are for recycling in your individual community.

I think I'm off my soapbox now.

Food Nut wrote:
Why not refill those plastic water bottles with water you filter yourself? One case of those little water bottles makes a lot of garbage.

The recycling habits of cities/towns and it's citizens and businesses change from place to place. Find out what the "rules" are for recycling in your individual community.

I think I'm off my soapbox now.

Food Nut,

Excellent point about recycling.

In Oak Park, the recycling folks take all the bottles, though I did try to re-use the Kirkland bottles last summer. I made tea, refilled the bottles, and kept the bottles of iced tea in my office refrigerator. In about two weeks, some bottles had grown a variety of molds inside -- I drank a few of them, and saw pretty colors, and that point, I decided to send the empties to the recylcers and drink my tea hot.

Hammond

Vital Information wrote:

David Hammond wrote:At home, to ensure that I drink unleaded, I let three women shower before I take a drink from the tap; my assumption is that many gallons passing through the pipes will cleanse most of the lead-percolated H20 and make it suitable for consumption.

Hammond

I'm hardly a plumbing expert, but how much does the water that runs to the shower run thru the same pipes as your kitchen tap?

We typically let the kitchen tap run a few minutes before filling up the brita machine to air out some of the chlorine. I should note, though, that I am (very) fine with Chicago tap, the brita (for me) is just for coffee.

rg

Here's the scoop. You've basically got two sources of lead to be worried about: (1) the stuff in the pipes in your walls and basement (i.e., between the supply source outside of your house and the tap) and (2) the stuff contained in the brass parts of your water taps. There is always water in both places, and lead can leach into it in both places if it sits there for more than a few minutes. In the pipes, the source of lead is probably the solder (unless you actually have lead pipes!). Running a shower or flushing the toilet a couple of times greatly speeds up the process of flushing out all the stale water in the pipes. However, that doesn't fix the tap. In the faucet/tap, the source of lead is the brass. In order to make a water-tight connection, brass needs a little lead in it to soften it up. The amount of lead isn't much, although it can vary widely among brands. This lead leaches into the water that is always present inside the faucet/tap; running the tap for 30 seconds is enough to clear this out. The general rule is, whether you use flushes or showers or whatnot to hasten the process, when you first use the tap in the morning, keep the water running until (1) it gets cold and (2) stops getting any colder for a few seconds. This indicates you are now getting water that was outside your house moments before, and therefore not filled with metals and gunk.

The plumbers union and friends in the Chicago city council have a long history of requiring labor-intensive obsolete plumbing requirements in the building code. Banning plastic pipe for DWV lines was an egregious example until Mayor Daley figured out that the plumbers mostly lived in suburbs and excess costs were discouraging housing renovation and construction in Chicago. Chicago required lead service pipes (not to be confused with galvanized pipe) from the water main into houses until the feds banned lead pipe. IIRC this was in the early 1980s. The change was between the announcement of the federal ban and its implementation. In any case, single family houses and two-flats in Chicago over 20 years old usually have lead pipes between house and street unless the service pipe was replaced with copper fairly recently. Running an insufficient amount of cold water in the morning or after other periods of low water use tends to put water that has been sitting in lead pipes at the faucet. Many suburbs had more reasonable plumbing codes, though.

The same concerns about lead in water led to a federal ban on the use of solder containing lead for water pipes. Newer solder for water pipes is an alloy of antimony and tin versus lead and tin in other solders. Lead-tin solder is used elsewhere, particularly in electronics, so somebody could cheat even though it is strictly against all plumbing codes. Some cheating may occur because antimony-tin solder has a higher melting point than lead tin solder and is a bit more difficult to handle.

As JimInLoganSquare notes, some lead is still used in plumbers brass for faucets and compression connectors.

Bad to the Last Drop

IT'S summertime, and odds are that at some point during your day you'll reach for a nice cold bottle of water. But before you do, you might want to consider the results of an experiment I conducted with some friends one summer evening last year. On the table were 10 bottles of water, several rows of glasses and some paper for recording our impressions. We were to evaluate samples from each bottle for appearance, odor, flavor, mouth, feel and aftertaste - and our aim was to identify the interloper among the famous names. One of our bottles had been filled from the tap. Would we spot it?

Also if your a health nut there is a danger in drinking from plastic bottles as well. Link to article: "Hazards of Hydration - Choose your plastic water bottles carefully."

http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/sta ... ottle.html

Was at Ninefish in Evanston last night (very pleasant experience) and was served a bottle of Deep Sea Water from Okinawa (4 bucks/500 ml).

Me, I have a hard time distinguishing quality differences in still waters, but The Wife thought it was quite excellent, "very clean tasting and ocean-y," she said. I will take her word for it.

I prefer plain old tap water kept cold in the fridge in a glass container, but my favorite bottled water is Topo Chico, a Mexican mineral water that when served cold with no ice and a slice of lime makes a great summer time refreshment. Available at Caputo's in large bottles, and occasionally the small ones. I prefer the small ones. For some reason beverages in small bottles just seem to taste better; coke included. But it's probably all in my head.

David Hammond wrote:"very clean tasting and ocean-y,"

Does that mean salty?

stevez wrote:

David Hammond wrote:"very clean tasting and ocean-y,"

Does that mean salty?

I believe she meant fresh tasting, but I'm definitely in the camp that questons the actual, discernable taste differences between, say, Fiji water and common tap water. With mineral and bubbly waters, I can detect differences; with still waters, I'm many times at a loss to describe how one varies from another.

stevez wrote:

David Hammond wrote:"very clean tasting and ocean-y,"

Does that mean salty?

Most bottled waters and sparklers sold in the U.S. proudly boast that they are "sodium free," but Topo Chico contains somewhere between 10 and 15mg of sodium per serving.

It's one of the reasons I choose Topo Chico in a cooler lineup at the convenience store every chance I get.

The sodium actually allows for the water to break cleanly on the palate.

http://www.bevnet.com/reviews/topochico/facts.asp

E.M.

We drink a lot of bottled water due my husband's vendetta against tap water (largely related to the amount of chlorine that's in LM's finest, among other things). I'd like to put my big, fat two cents in on this issue.

1) We here in this part of Chicagoland actually do get Lake Michigan water out of our tap, and while I don't find it hugely objectionable (unlike my more rural friend's well water - ugh), the more I drink bottled water, the more I tend to notice the chlorine taste in our tap water. Therefore, I rarely drink tap water anymore (unless it's filtered, which, I think, helps a lot.)

2) There are several distinctions between bottled water and you can usually figure out what they are by looking at the bottle. Spring water, artesian water, reverse osmosis, filtered, distilled. Spring and artesian water all generally has some natural mineral content in it by nature. Spring is "mined" from natural springs below the earth. Artesian water is just spring water that rises to the surface without the use of a pump. For any number of reasons, there are various arguments whether spring or artesian water is 'better' for you. I won't get into that now. In any case, if a bottle is labeled Spring or Artesian, it has to come from the labeled source. Therefore, they can't filter tap water and call it spring. That is illegal.

Reverse osmosis uses pressure to separate impurities (i.e., salt in salt water) by forcing it through a membrane. Given the nature of the process, it's no wonder that RO water has an almost "distilled" taste to it. It tends to remove a lot of the mineral content in addition to any other "impurities" that are being removed in the process.

Filtered water is water that is run through a filter (i.e., a carbon filter) that catches many of tap water's impurities. It is, however, an imperfect process and does not completely remove chlorine and other elements from the water in the process. Bottled water that is filtered is often just listed as "drinking water" on the label. This is what you will get, for instance, if you buy Jewel brand bottled water.

Distilled water is water that is run through a distillation process, that is, the water is boiled to the point of steam and then re-condensed into a sterile container. The main problem I've found with distilled water is precisely what an earlier poster complained about: it's completely tasteless, to the point where (at least for me), it leaves my mouth just feeling cold and dry.

3) We've tested out a number of waters in my household and I can give you a short list of waters I definitely dislike: Evian, Absopure, Nestle, Dasani, Aquafina, off the top of my head.

I find Fiji to be acceptable, but not really my favorite. Ice Mountain is generally fairly decent and suspiciously cheap. Is that just a re-packaged, filtered tap water? I think it's labeled as Spring water, but I'm not sure.

4) Our favorite, which, strangely enough, no one's mentioned yet, is Poland Spring. We can usually get it relatively cheap at Wild Oats (relative being the key word here, i.e., $4.99 for 24 - .5L bottles) and buy it by the truckload. I think it has a pleasant taste that I've really grown accustomed to. I also have found Aqua Panna to be acceptable (I'm pretty sure it's just San Pellegrino's still counterpart) as well as Voss. The latter two are still waters I generally see in restaurants; I don't usually buy them on my own because they're so expensive on the retail market.

We're not huge sparkling water drinkers, so I can't put my opinion in there, sorry to say.

On a final note, though: even before I was a huge proponent of bottled-water drinking, I almost always noticed a difference between making coffee with tap water and making it with filtered water. The filtered-water coffee always had a much cleaner, sharper taste. Much preferred.

ps: If it wasn't for my husband's wily ways, I would probably just go back to using the 'ol Brita filter, which I always found acceptable for my use. Not only did it make the tap water taste better, but it was always nice to go into the fridge and be able to pour yourself a nice glass of cold water!