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Advice for the UP/Marquette MI area?

Advice for the UP/Marquette MI area?
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  • Post #31 - November 17th, 2005, 9:56 am
    Post #31 - November 17th, 2005, 9:56 am Post #31 - November 17th, 2005, 9:56 am
    I've held my tongue, because, frankly, I enjoyed the meal I had at waterstone. Also, we can't read the Eagle Herald review (subscription only), and the Hunts' Guide blurb doesn't actually say whether the food is good or not.

    I was the one who referred to your restaurant as special occassion, and made sure to note that the ingredients were seasonal but not necessarily local. And both, at least within the context of marquette, are true.

    Yes, you've got the $19 bistro dishes, and it was smart of you to do that, but in a town where the median household income is about $30,000 a year, compared to about $70,000 for the chicagoland area, $19 a head (be it at the Vierling or the Waterstone) is still special-occassion range.

    And I know it can be hard to get local ingredients on your menu, especially in the UP in the winter. And I know you wanted to give people something they couldn't get many other places. But how about throwing on some Minnesota or Michigan or Wisconsin bison, or elk, beef, or lamb? Why are your fish dishes tuna, lobster, and grouper? I think a dedication to Slow Food would involve using, say, the fantastic UP brook trout or whitefish sometimes.

    You can use the ingredients everyone else is using and still stand out just by preparing it better. It's not like it's hard to beat the mushy whitefish at the Vierling.

    I understand you're bitter, and Marquette will be poorer without Waterstone. It's sad to see a good restaurant close. I sympathize. But please, continuing to whinge and trash other people and restaurants here makes me quickly lose that sympathy.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #32 - November 17th, 2005, 10:38 am
    Post #32 - November 17th, 2005, 10:38 am Post #32 - November 17th, 2005, 10:38 am
    gleam wrote:I've held my tongue, because, frankly, I enjoyed the meal I had at waterstone. Also, we can't read the Eagle Herald review (subscription only), and the Hunts' Guide blurb doesn't actually say whether the food is good or not.

    I was the one who referred to your restaurant as special occassion, and made sure to note that the ingredients were seasonal but not necessarily local. And both, at least within the context of marquette, are true.

    Yes, you've got the $19 bistro dishes, and it was smart of you to do that, but in a town where the median household income is about $30,000 a year, compared to about $70,000 for the chicagoland area, $19 a head (be it at the Vierling or the Waterstone) is still special-occassion range.

    And I know it can be hard to get local ingredients on your menu, especially in the UP in the winter. And I know you wanted to give people something they couldn't get many other places. But how about throwing on some Minnesota or Michigan or Wisconsin bison, or elk, beef, or lamb? Why are your fish dishes tuna, lobster, and grouper? I think a dedication to Slow Food would involve using, say, the fantastic UP brook trout or whitefish sometimes.

    You can use the ingredients everyone else is using and still stand out just by preparing it better. It's not like it's hard to beat the mushy whitefish at the Vierling.


    Ed, I appreciate your thoughts. We obviously know that for folks whose median income is $30,000, we would not be more than special occasion. But there is an over 500-physician hospital system, a heavy pharmaceutical base, and a host of professionals our way - in fact, Marquette is the regional hub for such activity. This was the basis of our thinking, and, presumably, this is what probably led our bankers themselves to say we were being wildly conservative - yes, it was their view that we were being too conservative in our projections.

    Don't know about the eagle herald - I just googled waterstone restaurant, and it came up. I think the thrust of the Hunt's review is clear.

    Here's another one:


    http://www.thenorthwind.org/index.php?story=3043&drop=diversions&search=waterstone

    There are others. It doesn't matter.

    Tuna and Lobster stayed on because it would have been suicide to get rid of them. They were demanded highly. Probably, because noone our way had either treated in this way (lobsters - live and slaughtered here, not "coldwater tails," for example). The other fishes were rotated in on a seasonal basis - i.e., cod, field and sea - cod with a veal stock, red wine/shellfish and clam stock, and sherry vinegar reduction; clams, black trumpet and matsutake mushrooms, and bean medley, in the depths of winter. Halibut with an artichoke-vinaigrette, anchovy-beignets; others.

    Given next day air, seasonally optimal and local do have some correlation (see L'Etoile, in Madison, for example - where Odessa Piper shares with Alice Waters primary responsibility for much of what we are discussing here, but, who, nevertheless also combs the world's oceans and fields for the best - on a seasonal basis).

    The two local fishes you mention - whitefish and brook trout. I'm not a fan of whitefish, can't get behind it, and, besides, our local supplier sells it almost exclusively to the Vierling, who does, in my opinion, a great job (I've never had "mushy whitefish," Though not a fan of the fish, it is the Vierling's thing and I was glad to try it. I don't use whitefish, because what my palate itself doesn't really work with, I won't put out - I put things on a plate that I am overwhelmingly, sensuously passionate about; it has been the only guide I can know.

    Local brook trout was not available on any kind of consistent basis. I did try - I tried like hell - to work with the local fish suppliers, as much as I tried to work with local farmers and ranchers - and, to a business, none of them understood that we needed to be supplied more than a couple of times, literally. The marriage of a restaurant and its suppliers, on the model of Chez Panisse - is just too foreign our way, at least as it stands now. For example, beef- Highland cattlemen out of Escanaba said they would work with us, I set up a meeting to finalize - they said, see you on Thursday - and, I never heard from them again. I called repeatedly. Nothing. Or, as their economies of scale are too low, and as no cow is made up only of flatiron, hanger, and ribeye, they were understandably stuck with what to do with the rest of the animal once I got through. We thought to have an off-site cold room, and dedicated butchery (on the model of Les Halles, N.Y.). But we did what we did with a skeleton crew, and did not have the resources for such an undertaking. But it was all in my mind, to find ways to work with local folks. These are only examples of innumerable other things we tried to do to stay local.

    Which I guess, Ed, is partially why I responded to your post - our every desire was to be local. But it was not always possible. Wherever it was possible, we did it. Sometimes, it was the case where local itself was impossibly costly - on a menu which already ran 45-52% food cost (when 35-40 would have been more tenable), and, knowing the price sensitivity of our guests, we did exhaustive trials of national C.A.B. v. Minnesota export rib - and found no appreciable quality differential; at 1 1/2x to 2x the price, we had to make some decisions.

    The other reason I posted, Prices. We believe this was a problem of perception, not reality. It struck my wife and I that we were, on our low end, 3x the cost of A&W, and close ($3-4) to what the brewpub charges across their entree line. Enough said. I stand by what I said initially - people could easily spend here what they spend at any number of other sit down places. But the perception could never be overcome, and, as the seasonal nadir of February and March hit (with many nights of only 2-6 people), we had no funds left to strengthen our message.

    Again, so be it. Waterstone, peace on its ashes. But the above is, in my mind, closer to the actuality of things than what has from time to time said. It is sometimes easier to frame a perception of things, from the outside, than what we who tried this knew from the inside.

    Paul
  • Post #33 - November 17th, 2005, 10:49 am
    Post #33 - November 17th, 2005, 10:49 am Post #33 - November 17th, 2005, 10:49 am
    I do understand completely about the Thill's/Vierling conspiracy. It's a shame you couldn't have gotten in touch with the supplier to the Brownstone Inn over in Au Train. The whitefish is vastly better there than at Vierling, but I'm not sure who their supplier is. Maybe someone in Munising.

    I hope you reopen elsewhere, in a more hospitable environment. Even with the hospital and its local economy, I really don't think Marquette was, or is, able to support a place like Waterstone. Obviously the town has changed a lot in the past few decades, and maybe in another 10 or 15 years the economy will be at a state where your books would be filled every night.

    Keep us updated.

    With regards to prices, once you added the bistro dishes, which was a wise (and I'm sure necessary) move, you certainly fell just a bit above the vierling. But there were two problems: you'd already earned the reputation as a very expensive restaurant when that submenu didn't exist, and since you were only able to offer a few dishes, the four on the bistro menu couldn't compete (in crowd-pleasing power) with the 20 at the Vierling. I'm not saying lower your prices more, I'm just saying that if I had to feed my (hypothetical) 60 year old retired mineworker pasty-loving father, I'd feel safter bringing him to the Vierling. And a lot of your target audience has 60 year old retired mineworker pasty-loving fathers..

    One other thing I always wish a place in the UP would offer on the menu? Real, hand harvested wild rice. It's one of those things that almost no one uses, and the UP and Minnesota are perfectly situated to offer it at the higher end places. It's a shame to always get the hard, cultivated "wild" rice.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #34 - November 17th, 2005, 10:58 am
    Post #34 - November 17th, 2005, 10:58 am Post #34 - November 17th, 2005, 10:58 am
    Fair, and true enough, Ed. As I wrote to you in PM, thank you for your thoughts, and thank you for your patronage. Much of what I have written here is indeed whining, and it's time (finally) to stop.

    Peace all.

    Paul
  • Post #35 - November 17th, 2005, 11:15 am
    Post #35 - November 17th, 2005, 11:15 am Post #35 - November 17th, 2005, 11:15 am
    Whining and trashing were strong words, and I didn't mean them to come off as harsh as they did.

    Again, please keep us updated on your next project.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #36 - November 26th, 2005, 9:49 am
    Post #36 - November 26th, 2005, 9:49 am Post #36 - November 26th, 2005, 9:49 am
    Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I just couldn’t let this one go without commenting.

    I’m a third generation Marquette resident, having moved back after spending the majority of my adult life elsewhere. I moved back for a lot of reasons, but food was not one of them – like others on this thread have said, beyond bar food (which there is a fair bit of very good burgers and pizza and the like), the UP food scene is miserable.

    When Waterstone opened, my husband and I circled it like hungry wolves. The menu looked fantastic – but we had been burnt too often in the UP, lured in with the promise of something good only to find out it was poorly done reassembled and dressed with a Sysco sauce. I’m happy to report our misgivings were unfounded. Paul consistently produced some of the best French bistro food that we’ve ever had. He’s a perfectionist, and within a few weeks we knew what came out of Waterstone’s kitchen would be top quality, lovely to look at, and delicious. His staff also came through; in a town where the typical waitstaff consists of 20-something college students who think good service is announcing their name and drawing a smiley face on the check, Paul and Kelly managed to find a group of young people who actually cared about what they did. They were professional, unassuming, and knowledgeable.

    So why did Waterstone go out of business? It wasn’t because of the food, I can tell you that. It was hands-down the only quality food in town. It wasn’t the prices, either. It might surprise some people – including the person who wrote the piece Paul posted above – but Waterstone was not the most expensive place in town. A meal at Red Lobster or Timber Creek (a new steak house out on the mini-mall strip) can easily eclipse what you’d pay at Waterstone, and last I looked both those places are doing well. I’ve been to Timber Creek once; my $26 steak was inedible, obviously a low quality piece of meat badly cooked. If I recall correctly, the only entrée that came in more than $26 at Waterstone was the lobster, and a better steak could be had for a mere $19.

    I’m no expert in restaurant management, but if I had to guess I’d say that Waterstone went out of business because the community wasn’t ready for it. The restaurant culture that’s so common in other areas hasn’t appeared up here; most people eat at home except for the occasional special occasion. People here also have a mistrust of “fancy” things; Waterstone may have been better off had they gotten rid of the white tablecloths, put the staff in T-shirts, and promoted a happy hour. I don’t think either of these phenomena are uncommon in small towns; the excellent article “Two Americas, Two Restaurants, One Town” by Rebecca Skloot of the New York Times Magazine (reprinted in “Best Food Writing 2005”) talks about much of the same mindset that contributed to Waterstone’s demise.

    Still, I am surprised that Marquette was not able to support one small high-end restaurant; long before Waterstone opened, my husband and I would remark that the number of doctors, lawyers, and well-off retirees in the area must be dying for one really nice place to go out to eat.

    As far as the Landmark – what a joke. Yes, the hotel is lovely, and it’s a nice place to have in the community. But whoever is running their restaurant and bar is a perfect example of a small-town big fish who has delusions about his actual skills. Sure, the bar food is decent – but it’s certainly not all from scratch or particularly high quality. If we’re comparing to the Waterstone, we have to compare the actual restaurant. I’ve eaten at a lot of nice places, and have had various levels of bad service and bad food, but the Landmark is the only place where I’ve been told that I had to eat my Eggs Benedict sans hollandaise because the chef was “too busy” to make it (this was five minutes after the eggs – minus the sauce - were set in front of me.) My husband and I also once ordered a nice bottle of champagne at the Landmark – I think it was a Tattinger – and it came without an ice bucket. Now, that’s not too horrible of an omission; what was horrible is that when we asked for one, what was brought (with enough of a delay that we were into our second glass of champagne) was not the typical silver ice bucket, but an empty drywall bucket, full of ice.

    I could go on and comment about the Landmark’s food (currently a “Tapas” bar, consisting of huge portions of mediocre food at $6-$8 a plate. Er… did anyone tell the cook (he’s not a chef) what “Tapas” were supposed to be?) but the real bottom line is the money. I can tell you, in the 3+ years I’ve lived in Marquette, I’ve eaten at the Landmark’s restaurant maybe 2 or 3 times, mostly when others have suggested it. In comparison, we were at Waterstone a minimum of once a month, and there were periods where we’d be there once a week – maybe not for a full meal, but stopping in to have a glass of wine in the atrium, or dessert and champagne, that kind of thing.

    I, for one, will very much miss Waterstone and what Paul and Kelly were trying to do. They may have misjudged the community and have been dealt a bad hand by some of the “leaders” around town (once again, the town is rife with big-fish-in-small-town politics and people who are woefully incompetent at their jobs), but they know how to cook and how a restaurant was supposed to be run. Paul is the only real chef in town, hands down, no matter what some other people’s business cards might say.
  • Post #37 - November 26th, 2005, 9:59 am
    Post #37 - November 26th, 2005, 9:59 am Post #37 - November 26th, 2005, 9:59 am
    For the record I want to point out that someone attempting to present the "other side" of this story tried to post a couple of times but the posts were pulled because of their unnecessarily personal nature.

    We encourage both sides of anything, and have no bias toward one or the other, but we ask that comments stick to specifics and stay away from personal animosity. Comments which do not meet our standards for minimally civil discourse will be pulled.
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  • Post #38 - November 26th, 2005, 5:59 pm
    Post #38 - November 26th, 2005, 5:59 pm Post #38 - November 26th, 2005, 5:59 pm
    Doozy,

    I think you are preaching to the choir. If any of us were in the UP and the restaurant was open, I'm sure we would partronize it. Unfortunately, we are/were not the target audience.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #39 - September 8th, 2006, 8:22 pm
    Post #39 - September 8th, 2006, 8:22 pm Post #39 - September 8th, 2006, 8:22 pm
    I picked up a little more information that may be useful in determining the origins of cudighi, the Italian pork sausage that seems to be found nowhere but the U.P. and a few bars in Wisconsin serving "authentic U.P. cudighi."

    At the wonderful new Cliff's Shaft Mining Museum in Ispheming, I saw this sign talking about the Italian immigration to the area.
    Image

    As Kenny noticed to his surprise , it's seasoned with what think of as cake spices--cinnamon, allspice, etc--and red wine. No fennel, no hot peppers. I remember how surprised I was to encounter fennel in the Italian sausage I found in Chicago.

    Perhaps someone who knows more about sausage and/or Italy (which would include virtually everyone on this board) can make something useful from this additional information.
  • Post #40 - September 9th, 2006, 8:44 am
    Post #40 - September 9th, 2006, 8:44 am Post #40 - September 9th, 2006, 8:44 am
    Ann Fisher wrote:I picked up a little more information that may be useful in determining the origins of cudighi, the Italian pork sausage that seems to be found nowhere but the U.P. and a few bars in Wisconsin serving "authentic U.P. cudighi."

    At the wonderful new Cliff's Shaft Mining Museum in Ispheming, I saw this sign talking about the Italian immigration to the area.
    Image

    As Kenny noticed to his surprise , it's seasoned with what think of as cake spices--cinnamon, allspice, etc--and red wine. No fennel, no hot peppers. I remember how surprised I was to encounter fennel in the Italian sausage I found in Chicago.

    Perhaps someone who knows more about sausage and/or Italy (which would include virtually everyone on this board) can make something useful from this additional information.


    You might want to get Don Curto in on this - he owns "The Italian Place/New York Deli". Don's a good writer with a love of Italian cooking lore - I would venture he has thoughts on this.

    Cheers,

    Paul
  • Post #41 - September 9th, 2006, 1:23 pm
    Post #41 - September 9th, 2006, 1:23 pm Post #41 - September 9th, 2006, 1:23 pm
    Ann Fisher wrote:cudighi, the Italian pork sausage that seems to be found nowhere but the U.P. and a few bars in Wisconsin serving "authentic U.P. cudighi."


    I recently found myself in Two Rivers, WI and saw a place advertising "pasties and cudighi" on its sign. I apologize for not noting the name or exact location, but it's on 42 on the way out of town, going North. It was closed both times we passed. Anyone know the place?
  • Post #42 - September 9th, 2006, 3:15 pm
    Post #42 - September 9th, 2006, 3:15 pm Post #42 - September 9th, 2006, 3:15 pm
    You know, I like Don Curto, and the New York Deli incarnation of that space isn't that bad. But "The Italian Place" (to those unfamiliar: it's two restaurants in one space, NY Deli during the day and Italian at night) is so painfully mediocre, I just can't bear to give it any more shots.

    I do believe he loves Italian cooking. His restaurant just isn't very good at it..
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #43 - September 9th, 2006, 3:47 pm
    Post #43 - September 9th, 2006, 3:47 pm Post #43 - September 9th, 2006, 3:47 pm
    Absolutely agree. With you, I believe his love for Italian cuisine and culture is sincere, and I know he puts his money on the line by travel there regularly; so I applaud and encourage that as much as possible. So long as I get that the proprietor gives a damn, actually, I can forgive a good deal.
  • Post #44 - July 8th, 2014, 12:32 am
    Post #44 - July 8th, 2014, 12:32 am Post #44 - July 8th, 2014, 12:32 am
    Bumping this thread as the family will be making a college visit up there next month. Anything new to add?
    Ms. Ingie
    Life is too short, why skip dessert?
  • Post #45 - July 8th, 2014, 1:08 pm
    Post #45 - July 8th, 2014, 1:08 pm Post #45 - July 8th, 2014, 1:08 pm
    I visit Marquette at the end of every summer and typically post here.
  • Post #46 - July 13th, 2014, 7:29 pm
    Post #46 - July 13th, 2014, 7:29 pm Post #46 - July 13th, 2014, 7:29 pm
    I go 6-10 times per year. Just got back from a week and a half for the 4th. You must understand that food up there is just not like here. AT ALL.

    I believe Rubiyat is no more.

    I still think Rice Paddy (Thai) has some serious potential if you were to ask them to make something THEY like to eat. I walked in on July 3rd with all intentions of doing that. But they were slammed at 7pm, and as soon as I walked in, they said "One hour for food." The pad thai I got from there a few years ago was an atrocity, but everything else was decent... for Marquette.

    I do enjoy Kay's Oriental for "far off the mainstrip absolute dive Americhinese." It is what it is, and the food is as good as any other Chinese place in town.

    THERE IS A NEW MEXICAN PLACE!
    THERE IS A NEW MEXICAN PLACE!!
    Sol Azteca. I have no intel, sorry. I drove by it and almost threw a fit because the folks I visit didn't tell me there was a new Mex joint until we were driving by. If I knew about it, I would have made it a point to plan a meal there. From being in the area for 12-15 years 6-10 times per year, however, I can honestly say that a Chipotle would probably put the other two or three Mexican joints out of business in about a month. And I really do not like Chipotle at all. So, If I were to go to Sol Azteca, I would just be expecting something along the lines of Pepe's. If it were anything better, that's a huge bonus.

    If you do break from the big city, and head to The Congress, I have a one two punch for you. After The Congress, hit Iron Town Pasties in Negaunee, and rock their Caramel ice cream. Forgot the name of it, but it had a deep browned caramel flavor to it, and I want some of it right now. Get a big ass bowl of that or a giant cone, then take it across the street and hang out on the shore of Teal Lake. Pro Tip: The "pop rocks" ice cream sounds like it would be cool, but the things don't fizz at all.

    The fam still loves The Portside for just about everything they have on the menu.
    New York Deli was also a huge favorite for everything , but has recently fallen far from grace.
    We cannot be friends if you do not know the difference between Mayo and Miracle Whip.
    Pronoun: That fool over there
    Identifies as: A human that doesn't need to "identify as" something to try to somehow be interesting.
  • Post #47 - December 27th, 2014, 9:38 pm
    Post #47 - December 27th, 2014, 9:38 pm Post #47 - December 27th, 2014, 9:38 pm
    I made it over to Sol Azteca, and I was very pleasantly surprised. For the area, it was decent. Pretty decent, indeed.
    Pre-apologies for the cell pix.
    Image

    The room was a decent size. Layout was weird, imo. I think they could have added a few more tables and had better lanes for the servers.
    Image

    Table salsa was decent. Nothing great. Even had a little heat. It was like a jarred version of pace picante, but there were fresh add-ins, like freshe tomatoes and a tiny bit of cilantro. We all dug it.
    Image

    Asked for an order of guac. I crossed my fingers hoping I wasn't gonna get a scoop of Dean's brand. SUCCESS! Real avocado. It was pretty good stuff. Someone made this, it didn't come from a factory.
    Image

    The menu had a bunch of combo plates that you'd expect, but there were a few platillos, like Carne Asada, enchiladas, and a few more of the basic usual suspects. I went with a combo of a burrito, taco and enchilada. I asked for grilled steak for the taco and burrito, and beef for the enchilada.
    Image
    Image

    The steak was bland, overcooked, but still, for the area, it was decent. The burrito was in a large soft corn tortilla, and sauced with a sweet Ranchero type sauce. I wasn't a fan, but it wasn't horrible. Most of our table kinda got the same stuff in different combo plate formations, but oddly enough, the standout dish of the night was the chicken enchiladas in mole negro. The mole was great. It was a doctored up pre-fab version, but I wouldn't hesitate to get it again. Surprisingly balanced, not too sweet, with a decent hint of heat on the finish. This place will hopefully be around for a long time. For the area, it's a real winner.
    We cannot be friends if you do not know the difference between Mayo and Miracle Whip.
    Pronoun: That fool over there
    Identifies as: A human that doesn't need to "identify as" something to try to somehow be interesting.

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