Kindly spoken, I would also suggest not picking a weekend night for your first time at GL. Try Wed/Thurs. Wed especially has been very easy lately.

Chitown B wrote:Kindly spoken, I would also suggest not picking a weekend night for your first time at GL. Try Wed/Thurs. Wed especially has been very easy lately.

Say it ain't so! I am planning this Saturday for my first visit.

Maybe I will take on the task of being the Line Squatter and let the rest of the group relax in a nearby tavern. Don't worry as we will be a small group of four.

Looking forward to it! Thanks for the pic's and rec's.

gleam wrote:

jesteinf wrote:

stewed coot wrote:After reading all this, I'm wondering why it's not as packed as it used to be. Aren't other casual hotspots in town still cranking at the same level? (Kumas, Doug's, Hop Leaf, etc.) Maybe apples and oranges, but I would expect a tiny place like this to maintain their peak numbers for quite awhile longer than this.

Maybe it's so crowded that nobody goes anymore.

Doug's has actually been markedly less crowded over the last month or so. I think the turning weather is keeping some people away from the lines.

I still have never been to Hot Doug's....no matter when we've tried, the lines wrap around the building. Even random weekday afternoons around 2-3pm.... maybe it's worth another try. But I assume it'll just lead to another disappointment.

I went to Doug's around 1PM on Tuesday. I was about 10th in line. In and out after eating within 25 minutes.

Even my longest, coldest wait at Doug's has been no more than an hour from start to finish, and I've been there no less than a dozen times...

Yeah, but I'm crazy in a way that precludes me from waiting for an hour in a queue for a hot dog, even if it might be the best hot dog ever eaten by man. It's probably the same reason I haven't tried Xoco yet, and why every attempt to eat at Frontera ends up with us eating dinner at Fado, instead.

To add another data point on the wait, we arrived around 5:10 last night (Saturday), thinking they opened at 5:30 (d'oh) and were told an hour wait to dine in. They called at around 6:30. At that point, people were already being turned away for the night.

We ordered the menu regulars this time around, #1 and #2. Great amount of food, essentially 2 meals for the 2 of us (we took some home). As for the pizza itself, the #1 wasn't transcendent, but maintained its crustal integrity a little more. We should have sprung for the $3 garlic. The #2 mushroom packed all the flavor and still had nice char. I found myself creating bites out of a piece of crust mixed with an interior mushroom piece, for a great texture-flavor combination. I still feel this is some of the best bread product anywhere in the city, which is why we both made this face after seeing quite a few plates coming back to the kitchen with uneaten crusts.

Nick seemed to be genuinely enjoying himself and in his element, and I think Lydia may have cracked a smile or two. Let's hope they stay in this for the long haul.

So - is the actual opening time 5pm Wed-Sat?

We arrived at 5 several weeks ago on a Thursday and were told that we would have to wait (outside) because they were running late. After 15 minutes or so I gently banged on the door and asked if the three of us who were waiting in the freezing cold could at least be let inside. After some consultation we were grudgingly allowed in.

We loved the pizza and thought it was every bit as good as the one we had recently eaten at Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix. However, I did find it annoying that not only was there no word of apology for the delay in opening but as far as they were concerned we could just stand outside and freeze.

Marija wrote:We arrived at 5 several weeks ago on a Thursday and were told that we would have to wait (outside) because they were running late. After 15 minutes or so I gently banged on the door and asked if the three of us who were waiting in the freezing cold could at least be let inside. After some consultation we were grudgingly allowed in.

We loved the pizza and thought it was every bit as good as the one we had recently eaten at Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix. However, I did find it annoying that not only was there no word of apology for the delay in opening but as far as they were concerned we could just stand outside and freeze.

I suspect they had a bet running to see how long you would wait outside in the cold. I'm beginning to think they are just twisted.

With almost every experience I encounter throughout the day I try to remind myself of the simple coin in my pocket.

robert40 wrote:With almost every experience I encounter throughout the day I try to remind myself of the simple coin in my pocket.

Robert, I haven't heard this one before. Or did you make it up? What does it mean? Does it mean something along the lines of "be grateful for what you have"?

However unsnarky a question can be, imagine that and double it. I sincerely want to understand better what you're saying.

riddlemay wrote:

robert40 wrote:With almost every experience I encounter throughout the day I try to remind myself of the simple coin in my pocket.

Robert, I haven't heard this one before. Or did you make it up? What does it mean? Does it mean something along the lines of "be grateful for what you have"?

However unsnarky a question can be, imagine that and double it. I sincerely want to understand better what you're saying.

In hindsight I seriously should reconsider any messages of wisdom in the future. It was only a thought that came to mind after reading a handful of comments above. Purely nothing more then a coin always has two sides.

Now that I get it, it's not so bad!

riddlemay wrote:Now that I get it, it's not so bad!

Thanks! The question is will I remember it this weekend watching the play off's while my better half needs a hand with chores. LOL

Interview with the owners up at the NYTimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/business/smallbusiness/14sbiz.html?8dpc

Man, do they seem like jerks. Like they're the only ones in the world making pizza. I suppose it's possible their quotes just read poorly, but man ... make an effort, guys. I read this then I think of, say, the folks at Freddy's, scrambling in a tiny space to make everyone happy for low prices, carrying my food out to the car for me in the winter when I'm holding my kids. The GL pair read like they don't love what they do, and instead view it as compulsory work, plain and simple. I know that can't be the case, but come on. "Why is it a crime that we’re not open seven days and we’re not seating 100 people." No crime at all. But if you find more joy in making pizza than serving pizza, why not just make it at home for friends and save yourselves the headache?

Vitesse98 wrote:Man, do they seem like jerks. Like they're the only ones in the world making pizza. I suppose it's possible their quotes just read poorly, but man ... make an effort, guys. I read this then I think of, say, the folks at Freddy's, scrambling in a tiny space to make everyone happy for low prices, carrying my food out to the car for me in the winter when I'm holding my kids. The GL pair read like they don't love what they do, and instead view it as compulsory work, plain and simple. I know that can't be the case, but come on. "Why is it a crime that we’re not open seven days and we’re not seating 100 people." No crime at all. But if you find more joy in making pizza than serving pizza, why not just make it at home for friends and save yourselves the headache?

That's not at all how I read the article. They're perfectionists about their product, running their business the way they want. Good for them.

jesteinf wrote:That's not at all how I read the article. They're perfectionists about their product, running their business the way they want. Good for them.

Agreed. Isn't that one of the benefits of owning a business-you can run it how you see fit?

Count me in the crowd that finds that interview remarkably refreshing. And I think their assessment of many diners is right on. I want, I deserve, I should have, you should do, etc.... Like Doug Sohn or Michael Carlson or Burt, they're running their business in a way that makes them happy, which to me is more admirable than slaving and making yourself miserable because of some notion of how you should be running your business. If it earns you enough money and gives you enough time and the right kind of lifestyle to make you happy, you don't owe anybody anything more. Anybody who doesn't like it has plenty of other restaurant options in the city. End of story.

I thought it was the best article to date. And dare I say a bit scary to coincide with my coin analogy.

Anyone who thinks the owners are jerks don't know them, and are misinformed. They are really nice people who don't want mass volume, just laid back regulars. But they got popular, and so they're dealing with it because they still like to make pizza.

I spent my 40th birthday at GL in May of '09, literally 48 hours before the GQ bomb dropped.

The pizza was unbelievable as were the greens that Lydia purchased at Green City Market and dressed just right in terms of texture and saltiness and pucker. A totally magnificent evening in terms of food and flavors. I still remember it very clearly. But . . . customer service, in terms of warm and welcoming or even being gracious/generous just doesn't seem to be in their bones. They have never been rude to me or even cold but they just don't get it that by being engaging and connecting to people that they will have a loyal fan base.

This summer I waited 1 hour and 45 minutes in line at Hot Doug's, actually ended up taking my two-year-old to the river for a distraction (which was awesome, we saw a great Blue Heron and an Egret) and when we rejoined my husband and older son and friend in line (which none of us got punished for) and got to the counter, Doug Sohn greeted us super warmly, thanked us for waiting and took one look at my hungry boys and ordered two hot dogs with fries on the house and they came out within 2 minutes. THAT's being in charge of your business AND reading your customers very closely. We then ordered our fois gras dog and Iberian sausage and duck fat fries, etc and felt totally justified on a bunch of levels and actually, really satisfied. If someone had treated me coldly at HD's after that sort of wait, I honestly think I would have felt like a big, fat sucker. (Like, what kind of nutjob parent makes her kids wait in line for almost 2 hours for a dog?)

The quote from Lydia in the NYT article totally sealed the deal for me:

Q. What does customer service mean to you?

Ms. Esparza: Great service for us is the quality of food we bring to the table.

Do you see, or better yet, hear, the 500 pound gorilla in the 14 seat room here? She doesn't think that great service requires anything more than superior food quality. And I am beginning to think she might have a point, a point that befuddles me and all sorts of people, seeing how people line up in 14 degree weather outside the door to have it opened not with a warm welcome or an enthusiastic greeting but with the energy being given that it's just sort of a chore to pretty much open the doors at all. You may make a great pie, you may make the greatest pie on the planet. But you lack something. Call it customer service. I kind of like to call it a few different things: empathy, humanity, a sense of humor, gratitude.

I know that the owners are not jerks. They are not. I have said it earlier that I thought they were merely overwhelmed. But now I think they need to go on a retreat with someone like Doug Sohn who can teach them how to handle crowds whilst staying in their small space and why being warm and funny and engaged has its merits.

bjt

I think you sum it up well, bjt. If I can be allowed to react simply as a reader of the NYT article (since I haven't been to Great Lakes), I don't think the owners come off as total jerks. But there is room somewhere between not kowtowing to your customers (I can respect that), and leaving them out to freeze in the cold when your doors are supposed to be open. They don't seem to perceive this.

I think the customer service issues raised here present an opportunity for an entrepreneur. I moved out of the Edgewater/Andersonville area just a few years ago but driving through here fairly recently there were some empty store fronts close by (I think).

Maybe someone could open a Great Lake Pizza concierge service. Open a nearby bar operation with tables, no food, but have "runners" who will place orders and go to collect them and deliver them to people waiting. Maybe a pie in the sky idea (pun semi intended) but it could work. You know, sorta have Great Lake outsource the customer service aspect so they could focus on "manufacturing" so to speak. I dunno, maybe the THUNDERCANs concept would work.

From the reviews here they have a great product that is unique and they are focused on that aspect. Maybe they could look to outside help to handle the customer.

Just a random thought, but I lost New York Pizza (went out of business, but made a great NY style pie) when I lived near Lawrence and Damen and I would hate to see another place making a unique (for Chicago) pizza go by the wayside.

Chris Bianco of Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix is friendly, engaging with customers, and never fails to smile and wave as your leaving. His friendliness is well documented. Yet, if you Goggle Pizzeria Bianco or check Yelp you will find reviews that make even the very worse naysayer comments of Great Lake look like love letters. I kid you not... many are full of raw rage and nothing short of hateful.
I am not convinced that perceived owner personalities are the main factor. I believe its the nature of the topic and people have strong opinions regarding it. And it's not unique to Great Lake because you will find the very same love-hate relationships in discussion's on Pizzeria Bianco, Apizza Scholls, Di fara's etc.etc.

Neighbor Mike wrote:Maybe someone could open a Great Lake Pizza concierge service. Open a nearby bar operation with tables, no food, but have "runners" who will place orders and go to collect them and deliver them to people waiting. Maybe a pie in the sky idea (pun semi intended) but it could work. You know, sorta have Great Lake outsource the customer service aspect so they could focus on "manufacturing" so to speak. I dunno, maybe the THUNDERCANs concept would work.

I don't think you understand that they have one oven. They can cook two at a time, tops, and they are made from scratch every time. It's not a high volume business. They just don't have the throughput, and they don't want to. They're open 4-5 hours a day, 4 days a week.

This, I think, is the crux of it:

bjt wrote:But now I think they need to go on a retreat with someone like Doug Sohn who can teach them how to handle crowds whilst staying in their small space and why being warm and funny and engaged has its merits.

Why? (My emphasis)

It'd be nice if Hot Doug's were open late or if he opened more locations to alleviate the crowds a bit. It'd be nice if it were easier to get a reservation at Schwa or if Carlson even just cleared out the VM box once in a while. It'd be nice if I didn't have to plan my order ahead of time and call in advance to get a pizza at Burt's. And I'm told by some in this thread that it'd be nice if the folks who run Great Lake were a little warmer and fuzzier. But in all four cases, the folks involved have made it pretty clear that they have no intention of changing to meet their customers' desires. And why should they? So they can get more business? Seems like they have plenty. So they can make more money? Doesn't seem like they want more than they're earning. All four appear to be as successful as they want to be. We're not talking about flagging businesses that needs some kind of a boost or owners who are looking for ways to increase their revenue.

So why do they need to change?

The reason some people find these examples so frustrating -- offensive, even -- is that they challenge the age old notion that restaurants exist solely to please their customers. For most restaurants, this approach is simply a matter of survival. You make sure that every person who walks through that door is thrilled with every aspect of the experience or you go out of business. But these are restaurateurs who turn out such great food that they can serve it on their terms. Running a restaurant can be about what they want, and how they want to live their lives. I might prefer if they did something differently, but if they're happy with what they're doing, how can I say they need to or they should? They don't owe me anything. Nobody's forcing me through their front doors. They're under no obligation to provide me with my ideal restaurant experience.

Seems to me that if they were to become the Doug and Dora Sohn of the Chicago pizza scene, they'd suddenly become a much better restaurant in many people's eyes... and more popular... and more busy... which is precisely what they don't appear to want. It seems to me, bjt, that you're suggesting they do something that works against their interests.

Dmnkly wrote:I might prefer if they did something differently, but if they're happy with what they're doing, how can I say they need to or they should? They don't owe me anything.

One way to read the negative comments on this thread is a literal "I think they ought to be doing business differently." But another way is to read them as saying, "This conduct really displeases me, and makes Great Lake a place I don't want to revisit." In the former interpretation, I agree with your response, the owners have the right to run their business any way they damn well please, and prescribing that they must do it differently is out of line. But in the latter, less strict-constructionist interpretation--that the comments are at bottom an expression of customer displeasure--I find them entirely valid. (And useful.)

In the NYT interview, a tone emerges of "blame the customer." The owners are certainly not off-base to believe that the customer is not always right. "The customer is always right" is just an old saying, and (as we know) simply isn't true. But the customer is not always wrong, either.

I stress in my post that I'm sure it's a matter of perspective. I'm sure these guys love what they do and want to be the best at it. But that's never how they come off to me. Look, a restaurant is a service business in a service industry. The customer may not always be right, but the customer is still the whole point of the process. There are any number of little things GL could do to make things easier without changing their operation radically, let alone intruding on their monk-like process.

I realize there's a whole strain of thought on LTH that the restaurant is always right, and there's something to that, too - esp. when dealing with "auteur" spots like Schwa, et al. They're the only ones that do what they do, so they get a lot of leeway. But again, this is pizza we're talking about, and freshness of ingredients aside, it's not rocket science. I haven't been here yet, but at least I know I can. I have a flexible schedule, I'm very patient, etc. But it's sad to me that for a place that specializes in making, perfecting and providing the best possible product in the city, for once it's not price that's prohibitive but just the practical aspects. Hot Dougs (for example) can be swamped, but it's fast. Kuma's can be swamped, but they have a bar. GL ... I doubt I'll ever be able to enjoy this food with my friends and family.

Cue the inevitable "if you don't like they way they do business, then don't go there" post. Or the "if it's so bad, why is it so busy?" post. There's a lot of middle ground to be explored here.