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Goose Island - What Happened?!?!

Goose Island - What Happened?!?!
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  • Goose Island - What Happened?!?!

    Post #1 - January 31st, 2008, 10:39 pm
    Post #1 - January 31st, 2008, 10:39 pm Post #1 - January 31st, 2008, 10:39 pm
    I want to preface this depressing e-mail by saying that my wife and I have adored Goose Island, its microbrews, and wonderful bar-style food for a number of years. After spending numerous nights, resulting in my MBA ("Master of Beer Appreciation") award, this has become a part of the culinary tradition that I have loved about Chicago. I have always appreciated the value that remained despite the ever-changing menu and loss of old favorites. Unfortunately, that all changed tonight.

    Upon arriving, we were greeted by focused menus consisting of about 1/3 of the choices that were previously included on the loved Goose Island menu (granted, the same wonderful beer menu remains). When we asked our server if the menu changed permanently, he vigorously noted that it has changed, but "the quality has improved significantly", due to the higher-quality beef and larger burger. What was eye-popping was the much higher prices for the sandwiches and burgers (take note critics of the Paramount Room), which had increased from $8.95 from $13! In addition, if you wanted to sub something else for fries, that was an additional $2 (it was standard previously). Previous favorites, including Turkey Burgers and Buffalo Burgers, are now off of the menu. We were told, however, that we can substitute chicken for the burger, but it was the same $13 + $2 price for a chicken sandwich and mushrooms. $15 for a grilled chicken sandwich? If the selling point is more quality beef and larger burgers for the price, then why the same chicken sandwich for a full $6 more?

    I have always adored Goose Island and its beers, as evidenced by my "MBA" designation. However, I am fully puzzled by the higher prices and haute selling point. Is this trying to be more of a tourist locale? A "special occasion" spot? A hip-through-price-point attraction? Whatever the sell, I am sad to see what I used to consider the best "bar-style", value food option go out the window in favor of something else. While other joints close their doors permanently, I am saddened by watching a loved place closed within the skeleton of walls that still exist.
  • Post #2 - February 1st, 2008, 1:36 am
    Post #2 - February 1st, 2008, 1:36 am Post #2 - February 1st, 2008, 1:36 am
    I'm guessing you're talking about the clybourn location because I had lunch at the Wrigleyville location yesterday and the menu seems to be the same as the one you remember. I though just think of how the food has slipped over the years. The burger was sub-par and service was non-existent. Just because I'm reading the newspaper alone at the bar doesn't mean I want to wait fifteen minutes to order, overly long to bring me the check, and the newspaper isn't my napkins, I'd prefer to use theirs.

    The matilda though was worth the trip alone. I think both places have the potential to be fantastic (some of the beers tend to be) but the organization just doesn't put any stess on service and quality in the restaurants anymore.
  • Post #3 - February 1st, 2008, 9:46 am
    Post #3 - February 1st, 2008, 9:46 am Post #3 - February 1st, 2008, 9:46 am
    I couldn't agree more. I had lunch at the Clybourn location this summer and it was just awful. We hoped it would be a nice break from the nightmare of shopping in that area on a weekend, but it only made things worse.
  • Post #4 - February 1st, 2008, 10:47 am
    Post #4 - February 1st, 2008, 10:47 am Post #4 - February 1st, 2008, 10:47 am
    The on-line menus for the pubs don't reflect any change in the menu prices, but they might not have been updated yet. I am planning on stopping by this weekend for lunch so I guess I'll find out then. If they have raised prices that much I'll just have a beer or two and find sustenance elsewhere. I live within easy walking distance of GI Clybourne and used to go there twice a week or so, but these days I might make it there twice a month at the most. The declining focus on the food and what I consider poor management decisions are the major reasons I don't visit as often as I used to. For example, I've had several occasions where a sandwich I ordered came out on a cold, stale roll. No kitchen I've ever worked in would have allowed a sandwich like that to reach a customer, if your rolls are getting stale, throw them on the griddle for 30 seconds to soften them up! Most of the menu items I used to love have been removed from the menu...the original chicken Caesar sandwich on the sourdough garlic toast was awesome! Next the chiliquellas disappeared from the brunch menu and now the quesadillas are gone. These were things I would specifically go to GI for, and have a few beers while I ate. The owners need to take a close look at the decisions that management has made over the past few years and decide if they are going in the right direction.
  • Post #5 - February 1st, 2008, 1:02 pm
    Post #5 - February 1st, 2008, 1:02 pm Post #5 - February 1st, 2008, 1:02 pm
    Labrat - That Chicken Ceasar sandwich was my favorite as well. I've seen major changes as mentioned over the years, but this my be the one that keeps me away. I love the image (mentioned in the Paramount Room thread) of the Miller High Life guy coming in and saying, "$15 for a hamburger? Ya'll must be crazy."

    This change did take place at the Clybourn location, and I was curious if a similar change would take place in Wrigleyville. It'd be interesting to see Cub fans order a burger that has about the same % markup as an Old Style at the game! :)
  • Post #6 - February 1st, 2008, 1:08 pm
    Post #6 - February 1st, 2008, 1:08 pm Post #6 - February 1st, 2008, 1:08 pm
    The last time I was at GI a few weeks back, our waitress told us that the menu was due to change, and that a number of things would be taken off the menu.

    As a fan, generally, of smaller menus, I'm not sad to see things go -- I am sad to hear that the prices have gone up so much! Or, rather, that the prices have gone up without an attendent increase in quality. I'll pay, gladly, $12 for a ham sandwich at Hopleaf because it borders on rhapsodic (I'm exagerating) and their fries are wonderful. But $13 for a Goose Island burger? When, honestly, at $9 it was bordering on over-priced? I'll still go for the beer, but I guess I'll have to eat elsewhere.

    Incidentally, has there been a recent "Wild Huntsman" dinner, or whatever they were calling it? I never made it to one, but enjoyed seeing the menu. I wondered, too, why they didn't make more often the same quality and style of food that was served at these dinners.
  • Post #7 - February 1st, 2008, 3:06 pm
    Post #7 - February 1st, 2008, 3:06 pm Post #7 - February 1st, 2008, 3:06 pm
    I lived near the Clybourn GI for years, and occasionally get back there. Unfortunately, it really hasn't lived up to our expectations on recent visits. In addition, the service there can really test your patience.
  • Post #8 - February 4th, 2008, 2:13 pm
    Post #8 - February 4th, 2008, 2:13 pm Post #8 - February 4th, 2008, 2:13 pm
    I couldn't agree more with this post. Ive lived in LP my whole life so I have been going here for what seems like forever, even back when 1800 N. Clybourn was a happening mall. The last few times I have been back the food has sucked and the service tested my patience, which is very little to begin with.

    One of the times the prick bartender gave me and my buddy a real hard time about ID's because he had still used a license from college in Arizona and so the bartender was questioning whether it was real or not even though he was 25. Later after we finally got our beers we asked about food and he said something like the kitchen closes at 9p on Monday's (It was around 8:45), I said cool "can we get some of those bar chips then" and he replied "I said kitchen was closed". The other few times the food was just bad and the menu had been changing with every visit.

    In summary, if you like beer and can deal with the bartenders who obviously aren't happy in life then by all means still go, the beer is after all local and very good.
  • Post #9 - February 4th, 2008, 2:32 pm
    Post #9 - February 4th, 2008, 2:32 pm Post #9 - February 4th, 2008, 2:32 pm
    I went there a few weeks ago for the first time in a decade and was really disappointed. Worst hamburger I've had maybe ever and that's pretty hard to do. Plus we sat in that sad little room on the side that has all the ambience of a Wal-Mart cafeteria. Who owns this place? Who is responsible? What a embarrassment for the city.
    i used to milk cows
  • Post #10 - February 4th, 2008, 3:46 pm
    Post #10 - February 4th, 2008, 3:46 pm Post #10 - February 4th, 2008, 3:46 pm
    I am a long time fan of GI. I've referred to it as the most kid-friendly place in Chicago. My husband and I are both MBA's (masters of beer appreciation. I emailed them on Thursday, referring to this thread and not gotten a single reply.

    I'm very, very sad.
  • Post #11 - February 4th, 2008, 3:55 pm
    Post #11 - February 4th, 2008, 3:55 pm Post #11 - February 4th, 2008, 3:55 pm
    I will echo the sentiments here. My husband and I love the beer, but we used to frequent the North/Clybourn location because the food was fantastic pub grub. They had one of my favorite burgers for a very long time. They really paid attention to the food and the ingredients. In the past couple of years we have definitely noticed a decline. It's just all very ho hum. When we want burgers and beer it doesn't even come up on our list.
    For many years it was a destination when we had out of town guests, not anymore. We will continue to buy the beer at the liquor stores, but I have no interest in going for food.
  • Post #12 - February 4th, 2008, 5:42 pm
    Post #12 - February 4th, 2008, 5:42 pm Post #12 - February 4th, 2008, 5:42 pm
    I have to agree with all the above posters. We used to come here frequently for weekend brunches b/c of the quality of food, diversity of choices and lack of crowds. While the lack of crowds remains, the quality and selection have disappeared.

    I ordered a side of onion rings that were clearly the frozen manufactured kind. When i complained to the waitress, she assured me that they were made in the kitchen. I didnt want to argue with her so I just nodded and let her go on, but this place has clearly become much worse.
  • Post #13 - February 6th, 2008, 8:52 am
    Post #13 - February 6th, 2008, 8:52 am Post #13 - February 6th, 2008, 8:52 am
    I finally made it there last night for this week’s beer premier. I've never seen that place so dead on a premier night, not sure whether it was due to the new menu prices or the forecasted storm that didn't materialize. We mostly stuck with the apps, of which only four are still half price during happy hour. According to the menu, the burgers are now made with 10oz of prime beef, but you can substitute a chicken breast or veggie patty for the same price. The people who had burgers said they were good, but stopped short of saying they were $13 good. We ordered a basket of soft pretzels which arrived cold in the center, so there may still a problem with the kitchen executing the dishes properly. The plating of the dishes has improved quite a bit, which is nice but somewhat superfluous for pub grub. I will go back and at least try one of their new and improved burgers, but it'll have to be REALLY good for the new price!
  • Post #14 - February 6th, 2008, 9:02 am
    Post #14 - February 6th, 2008, 9:02 am Post #14 - February 6th, 2008, 9:02 am
    Ok, but really, who needs a 10 oz burger? I guess you could split it...
  • Post #15 - February 6th, 2008, 9:16 am
    Post #15 - February 6th, 2008, 9:16 am Post #15 - February 6th, 2008, 9:16 am
    We had lunch there in early December and had a terrible experience. Very interesting to read that so many other people share our disappointment.

    Although neither of us had been to GI in a while, we did have good memories. Our experience last December was as much of a surprise to us as a disappointment. We emailed someone at GI to share our thoughts; below are excerpts:

    The primary problem we had was with the catfish sandwich. It had an awful, overly fishy aroma and taste. It was clearly too old or improperly stored. It was inedible. We told our waitress about it. Rather than take the dish back immediately, she left it on the table. But she said she would check with the kitchen.

    She returned a few minutes later and said that the chef said the fish just arrived that morning and it was fine. She suggested that perhaps we just weren't used to the cornmeal crust. We said that we knew the difference between a cornmeal crust and bad fish. She said that she would take it off our bill (or replace it), but that she would "put down" that we just didn't like it because the chef said it was fresh. We replied that we didn't care what she wrote down, but it certainly wasn't matter of our dislike of the preparation. The fish was clearly very off.

    We shouldn't have to engage in this kind of discussion with the waitress. When a guest sends a dish back, it should be removed from the table immediately. The waitress shouldn't argue with us about whether the fish was fresh or not. Just take it away and apologize, even if the staff happens to think the dish was fine.

    There were a few other problems. First, all of the food was cool to lukewarm when served. Second, the service was incredibly slow. When the waitress first asked if we were ready to order, we said we needed another minute. It took her about 15 minutes to return to take the order. She never seemed to be around during the course of the meal. After the food arrived, we waited a very long time for her to come back so we could ask about the catfish. Later, we waited a long time for her to show up so we could ask for the check (and then she gave us someone else's check). Overall, this simple meal for two people took about an hour and 15 minutes.

    Third, we also ordered the meatloaf with creole gravy. The meatloaf was utterly tasteless. The so-called creole gravy seemed to be nothing more than stewed tomatoes that tasted more like tomato paste than anything else.

    Finally, when we first arrived, the hostess said that it would be about a 15 minute wait for a table. We noticed there seemed to be a number of empty tables in the dining area behind her. She said that the waitress who services those seats just had a number of new tables seated in her area, and that we should sit in a different area once tables opened up there. This seemed strange to us, having to stand and wait for a table in one area, when tables were clearly available in another area. It seems the root of the problem is that the restaurant didn't have enough servers.

    On a positive note, we sampled the Maduro, John the Younger, and a Stout, and all three were great.
  • Post #16 - February 8th, 2008, 6:35 pm
    Post #16 - February 8th, 2008, 6:35 pm Post #16 - February 8th, 2008, 6:35 pm
    I went to Goose Island to check out the menu and further work on my MBA (2 more down, still 30+ to go!). I can only echo the thoughts thus far -- the new menu is not an improvement.

    Again, give me a smaller menu with choices executed well rather than a large menu that suffers from poor execution (see: Hopleaf). But their new menu, fitting only on one 8x11 page, is too expensive. Most of the menu consists of burgers, all of which come gussied up with an unappetizing array of toppings. And they cost $13! Also on the new menu is a selection of salads, 6-8 apps and some other entrees like fish 'n chips, steak frites, a trio of steak sliders and another seafood dish or two. None of the entrees are less than $12.

    I went with the fish 'n chips (up from $12 to $14) and a friend grabbed the sliders ($12 for 3). I tried really hard to detect an increase in the quality of the fish, but no. There was none. My friend raved about the sliders, but at $12 I thought they were over-priced. On the upside, each plate came with a McDonalds Supersize-sized order of fries. Which was fitting since they might as well have picked up at a McDonalds (which is no knock against the fries -- I like McDonalds' fries -- but at that price point, I expect better). I didn't ask, but I doubt that they were hand-cut.

    The beer selection remains top-notch (go for the Debbie's Little Helper, so long as it's still on the menu), but the food... man, while the food never really was the main draw, it almost seems insulting considering its complete meh-ness and pricepoint. Go for beer, but go somewhere else for food.
  • Post #17 - February 8th, 2008, 9:39 pm
    Post #17 - February 8th, 2008, 9:39 pm Post #17 - February 8th, 2008, 9:39 pm
    I used to love Goose Island...for the Great beer and delicious food! But I haven't been there for a couple of years. The reason I haven't been back is because of the food the two times previous. Horrible, stale...I won't be back :( I miss the old Goose Island :? :?

    dan
  • Post #18 - February 9th, 2008, 10:13 am
    Post #18 - February 9th, 2008, 10:13 am Post #18 - February 9th, 2008, 10:13 am
    I agree with previous posters.

    Went there with a friend last Saturday. The beer was delicious -- we had the cask conditioned ale as I usually do. We wanted to get bar food but were shocked at the prices --- ended up splitting an order of fish and chips ($14). This turned out OK as the portion size is very midwestern. The fish was not noticably off but didn't seem overly fresh either. It was just OK.

    When I asked the bartender for a taste portion of the second hand smoked beer, he complied but only after making a rather rude remark about wanting to charge us for it.

    This was my least satisfactory GI visit in years.
  • Post #19 - February 11th, 2008, 10:25 am
    Post #19 - February 11th, 2008, 10:25 am Post #19 - February 11th, 2008, 10:25 am
    Ok, so I finally got a chance to stop by GI and try one of their new improved burgers. The burger itself was very good, excellent flavor and very juicy to the point of being messy. The one I had was served on rosemary foccacia, which once again was served cool so it fell apart as I was eating the burger. If anyone from GI is reading this thread TOAST OR AT LEAST WARM YOUR ROLLS! It really does help! I'm not a big fan of the new fries, mine were greasy and a little too salty. Not sure if that is how they are supposed to serve them, the oil in the fryer could have been a little too cool which would explain the greasiness and might have caused most of the salt to stick to one area of the batch. IMO the old fries were much better than these new ones. I was told that plain burgers and cheeseburgers are available at a lower cost than the "designer" burgers, they just aren't on the menu (which, by the way, STILL isn't updated on their web page).

    My normal MO in the past was to have 2 beers and a sandwich for lunch, due to the higher food prices I just had one beer with lunch so the check would end up about the same. Since a pint of beer generally has a much higher profit margin than food, they most likely made less profit on my lunch than they would have with the old menu. If others react the same way I did they might end up with a better profit margin on their food but a lower margin per cover due to decreased beer sales. Time will tell if this change was a good decision or not. One thing I overheard while eating but haven't been able to confirm is that Michael Kornick (MK, N9NE) was the consulting chef or at least in some way involved with the new menu.
  • Post #20 - February 13th, 2008, 6:54 am
    Post #20 - February 13th, 2008, 6:54 am Post #20 - February 13th, 2008, 6:54 am
    As a long time visitor of Goose Island (I'm a two-time MBA, thank you), I have to admit I've enjoyed the frequent menu changes over the years. They've always kept things fresh, while keeping the old favorites. I feel they've done the same with the new menu. The old stand-byes are there, as well as a few new items. The problem I have is the size of the food. Over the last three weeks I've grown accustomed to the giant new burger. I just don't get chili or a second beer anymore. It actually allows be to get out of there for less money. Then yesterday I go in and see the 8-ounce burger has returned. Thank goodness, Goose had come to its senses. Then, unfortunately, I was informed that only the plain burger could only be made with the smaller patty. The other burgers, including my favorite, the Stilton, were only available in the giant patty. The idiocy! C'mon Goose Island. Nobody wants a steakhouse burger in a pub. Give us the old burger (and a buffalo chicken).
    -
  • Post #21 - February 15th, 2008, 2:56 pm
    Post #21 - February 15th, 2008, 2:56 pm Post #21 - February 15th, 2008, 2:56 pm
    More bad news poured out of the brewery for me today as the manager informed me categorically that the Friday oyster happy hour is discontinued with absolutely no plan to bring it back. When pressed, he said that they want to "fully roll out with" the current new menu and that it was not excluded that the special would return at some point in the (distant) future. I see this as a basically meaningless statement however. For those not familiar (and among you are in fact most of the hostesses) these were fresh oysters from Shaw's sold at cost ($0.50 each) fridays between 4 and 6pm, they were not on the menu, and you had to "know" about them. The deal brought me and friends into goose island every two or three weeks and i naturally always ended up getting several beers and appetizers. Sadly, I anticipate never to set foot in there again.
    -matt
  • Post #22 - March 2nd, 2008, 4:08 pm
    Post #22 - March 2nd, 2008, 4:08 pm Post #22 - March 2nd, 2008, 4:08 pm
    I saw a thread on the beer advocate site that Goose Island has changed their menu again. Based on a posting, apparently from Greg Hall, the menu was changed based on the negative feedback seen on sites such as beer advocate and LTH forum.

    I haven't been back there yet, but it sounds promising.

    http://beeradvocate.com/forum/read/1266053
  • Post #23 - March 2nd, 2008, 11:22 pm
    Post #23 - March 2nd, 2008, 11:22 pm Post #23 - March 2nd, 2008, 11:22 pm
    God I hope that's true.
  • Post #24 - March 3rd, 2008, 8:47 am
    Post #24 - March 3rd, 2008, 8:47 am Post #24 - March 3rd, 2008, 8:47 am
    I stopped by over the weekend. Looks like they went back to an 8 oz burger instead of the 10 oz. I know we are in the midwest, but for me the 10 oz burger was a little too much. Burger prices have gone down to the $10-$12 range. I noticed that there are now more items on the menu, including old ones like the turkey burger, veggie burger and buffalo chicken sandwich. They still have not updated the menu on their website.
  • Post #25 - March 3rd, 2008, 2:57 pm
    Post #25 - March 3rd, 2008, 2:57 pm Post #25 - March 3rd, 2008, 2:57 pm
    I was glad to see that they brought back the turkey burger, and that the veggie burger was only $8. The portions of fries were much more manageable, too. The food still isn't anything to write home about, but at least the prices aren't as out-of-whack as they were when the new menu first debuted.

    They also had their Russian Imperial Stout as their cask-conditioned ale (this was this past Friday) -- man it was good. I suggest heading back ASAP before it runs out and they swap it out for something else.
  • Post #26 - March 16th, 2008, 3:39 pm
    Post #26 - March 16th, 2008, 3:39 pm Post #26 - March 16th, 2008, 3:39 pm
    Wife and I stopped by yesterday afternoon, not realizing that even at 4:30 or so they'd be packed with patrons sporting plastic green hats and kitchy emerald t-shirts. Whoops. Shoulda checked the calendar. I overheard one of the waitstaff say they'd changed the menu about six weeks ago. Which means they've probably had time to iron out the kinks.

    Here's the good part - Cask conditioned ale was very nice, but what a surprise - good beer at GI. Go figure. Wife's Stilton burger was pretty good - I like the roast garlic but it runs the risk of being overpowered by the mustard. She said it reminded her of a Hackneys burger (served on pumpernickel) and I agree. The stout mustard they serve there is really good - I have a jar of Sierra Nevada Porter mustard in my fridge that I'm reminded of, but the GI mustard is much stronger. My fries were of the toothpick frite variety, not great but slightly above average.

    And now, the downsides. Walking back to our table (described up-thread as " that sad little room on the side that has all the ambience of a Wal-Mart cafeteria," which is completely accurate) I noticed that the whole place stank of chlorine, or some other acrid chemical. Uck.

    Appetizer of two pretzels, Bavarian and cheddar jalapeno ($9) would have been good...if someone had thought to bake the cheddar jalapeno one all the way through. Soggy, doughy, nearly tasteless. My "chili" burger ($12), which was not topped with your "bowl of red" chili as you would expect, but rather corn salsa, avocado, anaheim chilis and jack cheese sounded good in theory, but not in practice.

    Disintigrating ciabatta roll, mediocre patty, and absolutely no heat whatsoever. My wife can barely stand to be in the same room with anything spicy, and as such I often times have to be the "spice arbiter" with things like salsa and such when we go out. She could have handled this with no problem. And for $12? No thanks.

    Service was competent but lackadaisical. Wandering over to the Sams across the street to pick up a couple bottles of wine and a couple bombers of Rogue beer (hazelnut and chipotle - mmm...chipotle ale) was probably the highlight of the trip.

    The menu may have changed for the positive - I wouldn't know, as this was our first trip there - but it's not likely we'll be back. Everything on their menu can be found at other places for cheaper and better, and I'm not the hugest GI beer fan in the world. Walking out, I caught that chemical chlorine smell again - don't know if it relates to cleaning out the brewery part, but damn. Shut a door or something.
    Writing about craft beer at GuysDrinkingBeer.com
    "You don't realize it, but we're at dinner right now." ~Ebert
  • Post #27 - March 16th, 2008, 5:14 pm
    Post #27 - March 16th, 2008, 5:14 pm Post #27 - March 16th, 2008, 5:14 pm
    Against our better judgment (see above), my fiance and I went to Goose Island for lunch yesterday (we were in the area....).

    We also noticed the strong chlorine smell. The menu was indeed revised and, surprisingly, the service was better. But we won't be going back. Everything just fell far short of where it should.
  • Post #28 - March 27th, 2008, 10:56 pm
    Post #28 - March 27th, 2008, 10:56 pm Post #28 - March 27th, 2008, 10:56 pm
    I agree with statements above that the current menu just apes Hopleaf without quite getting there, but I will give them credit for cooking a perfectly medium rare hamburger tonight with at least a few interesting touches (local bacon, aged cheddar, barbecue sauce made with their stout). The extra $2 over the corresponding Kuma's offering ($12 vs. $10) bought us a 45-minute-earlier seating time and an atmosphere that was actually conversation-friendly.

    The Dieuxieme was frustrating - absolutely delicious notes of coffee, vanilla, almond, and banana, but very flat body and alcoholic sting. I'll stick with the Matilda next time.
  • Post #29 - April 2nd, 2008, 7:39 am
    Post #29 - April 2nd, 2008, 7:39 am Post #29 - April 2nd, 2008, 7:39 am
    My wife and I have been going there pretty much every month for the past couple of years. We both really liked the food.

    After going this past weekend, we will NOT be back for a while. They took off most of the menu items we liked (paulina brat being one of them). The $12 burger was boring and bland.

    Sucks to see a place with such good beer and a good location go down in flames so fast. :oops:
  • Post #30 - April 2nd, 2008, 1:02 pm
    Post #30 - April 2nd, 2008, 1:02 pm Post #30 - April 2nd, 2008, 1:02 pm
    Those of us looking forward to WhiskyFest might have noticed one of their seminars features Greg Hall, GI's brewmaster. I'm tempted to attend and ask him not about using bourbon barrels to age his beer, but why he has let his flagship pub go so far downhill. Hardly appropriate, I know, but I'm flummoxed and frustrated enough to do so anyway.

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